S2E2: Cheating

Welcome back to the Queer and Kinky Couch. We've missed you, and we've saved the seat right here for you. That was a sissy pat. I'm your co-host, Jerry St. Louis, a sex therapist and educator. I'm Jordan Costen, your other co-host. I'm a psychotherapist and a sex therapist as well. Oh, okay. How you been since we last recorded, child? Um, I know we haven't talked as much, because I've had a super busy week seeing a whole bunch of clients. I know we have this issue of burnout that constantly happens. Our field. So, I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen, but, you know, just seeing more clients, because a lot of people are asking for help. So, there's been a lot of that going on this week, as well as we, as an alumni of the Howard University, we had our homecoming this past weekend. So, maybe I stepped out and saw, you know, did a one and a two. Saw some people here and there, maybe. Yeah, the city was full of bison this past weekend. Like, I got on the train. There were so many of you guys. Went to the gym. You guys were outside because you can't afford it. You know, those kinds of things. Tried it. I didn't, honey. Remember, it's the Mecca of HBCU. Oh, please. The Mecca, right? I think y'all call y'all self that. Nobody else calls y'all that. It's just known. Sometimes you don't have the boasts. That was a hater. I already know. That was a hater comment. I ain't even gonna hold you. That didn't sound right to me. That was a hater comment. No. I mean, y'all are the Mecca. You can't help yourself. You went to school. But y'all got y'all students sleeping outside. I went to the Florida A&M University. The? I did. We party hard. We stay up late. But most of all, we graduate. What type of diss is that, though? Me too. Y'all don't graduate. Y'all students sleeping outside, sister. I cannot attest to this. You didn't see it on the news? As a person who was on our university and graduated in 2007, there were none of these concerns currently present. Unfortunately, due to the high caseload that I have, I'm not able to pay attention to the news on a fairly regular basis, especially about disparaging news. That is a tootsie roll out of an accusation. Like, that is BS. But whatever. We're going to let y'all live. Next time I see it, I'm just going to go ahead and send it to you on Instagram so you can't say you didn't see it. And I'll screenshot and screen record just in case you lose a text message. I didn't necessarily need to see the information. How are you going to help the Howard students? So you just said forget the Howard students after you left? Did not. That's what it's given. But you didn't ask me about me. How am I doing? Because you're talking about my school, okay? You can't beat your school. You left in 2007 and you don't give a damn about what happened afterward. Okay, moving on. How is Sherwee? Oh my God, it was horrible. No, I'm just saying. It was good. I had a good week. I've been seeing an increase in my caseload as well. Okay. So, you know, God is good. What's your number? I'm not going to tell you my number. Why are you going to ask my damn number? What is the highest number you're going to take? I'll do 35 because that's also, you know, taking in, you know, people can be people. Things happen and people may have to cancel. So that's with that buffer. But one time I was at 31, 32. Everyone showed up. Not one time, but a few times, like everyone showed up. Been there. And it feels good because everybody comes, but you be wowed at the end of the week. I was at 33. Come on, Jesus number. But back to me. But I've been good. You know, I wanted to kind of share something that happened in the last two weeks. So this is actually a nice little segue. There is an organization called Free Bird Naked Yoga, and it is for black queer men who are into yoga and naked yoga. And we're actually going to have one of the teachers, the yogi, here in a couple of weeks. So we're looking forward to actually interviewing him. But I went and I wanted to, you know, experience what, you know, naked yoga was. Believe it or not, I haven't, you know, had the opportunity to stay naked yoga. I know. I know. And I'm the sex therapist. Like, I've been the sex therapist for a minute. And I'm a free person. But I think that, you know, I just never had done it. And child, you know, so something happened. You do tell. For those who do not know. Okay. So let me just say, let me just say that I deal with anxiety, right? And I don't like or I can't really meet a whole bunch of people at one time. Like, and so I went to the naked yoga and everybody was so nice. It was very welcoming. It was a very good space. Like, I'll let when Theo gets here, Theo's the yogi, he'll explain, like, you know, what the steps are and what happens. And it just felt like a very welcoming space. But I didn't take into consideration that I would be meeting multiple new people at one time. And I had a panic attack. Like, I had to leave. And it was early. Thank goodness it was early in the game. And, you know, everybody, like, was very nice. It was a very welcoming environment. But I realized, I didn't realize or take into consideration that I would be meeting multiple new people and then trying to have conversation. And I don't drink. Well, I don't really typically drink. I don't like drinking. It just does nothing for me. And so I was just, like, I didn't have, like, you know, a friend there to anchor me or anything of that nature. So I just, I felt, yeah, I was like, oh, goodness, I had to. You didn't have your emotional support person. I did not have my emotional support person. And so I was like, yeah, maybe, you know, I'll try this in a couple years or something other time. The nakedness wasn't what got me. Meeting the new people is what got me. Oh, new, not new. Yeah, new, N-E-W. I'm sorry. Yeah, meeting new people is what got me. Like, meeting multiple people. So that's what got me. The nakedness, like, bitch, my body, T, I've been working out. But, like, I felt comfortable in the space. And I got compliments on my body, which was very nice to hear. It's affirming. It is very affirming. So, like, and the people were so nice. It was just, oh, wow, I'm meeting multiple new people at one time. And I didn't emotionally prepare for this. So, something I've not discussed publicly that you already kind of know of that relate is that I dabbled, put a toe in. In what? What are we putting our toes in? So, I went to naked yoga myself. It wasn't the same one that Jerry went to, but I went to naked yoga myself just to try it out. It was in this period or chapter of my life where I needed to be more expansive and explorative for myself. So, I just said, okay, I got an invite from a friend. While I was at an event, it was actually an underwear party. So, I was at an underwear party. I met the instructor from yoga. And he said, oh, I do it on these days. And I looked him up. And then I went with a friend of mine. And so, I said, I just want to try this out. And it was such an affirming experience because there's all types of bodies that are there. All just enjoying in yoga. And there was always consent that was considered. Yeah. Because do you need help? You know, raise your hand if you don't want me to touch you, if you're okay with it. What is your kind of safe zone boundaries, if you will. So, it was an amazing experience. That's where things left and were because in some of these situations, they're a bit more expansive after yoga. After yoga, you can, you know, do somewhat of a tantric touch. And it is something that we're going to speak about a little later in the season. Yeah. We're going to go in deep with this subject. I'm just saying, like, I think that there is space to talk about. Deep and not gaping. I don't mind a little gape, honey. I don't mind gaping a little bit. Don't wreck my shit. That's all I'm asking. But, any whore, I do think that there's a space for, like, let's just sex parties, sex clubs in our, you know, in our culture, in our community. It is part of, you know, our, it is part of what we live through. This is true. I've been to my fair share. I've had a good time before. And, yeah, I mean, I'm actually, you know, as a clinician, I can't, I can't really go to, like, underwear parties. Like that, because, not in my city, because it's very likely that I'm going to run into a client. And don't get me wrong, I can live my life, but I don't, like, I would feel uncomfortable, if you will, like, at a underwear party, in my underwear and seeing my client. I mean, I guess that's fair, but we do have to come back to this argument time and time again about we're real people outside of this job you see us in. And clients, for whatever reason, tend to think that's not the case. And that's so important. So, I understand there's a line, and we all define that based off of who we are as people as well as clinicians. I don't know exactly where I stand, because that's a really good point. I was just kind of, like, trying something out for the very first time. But now that you've brought that kind of up, I don't know how I feel about that. I think I've been to a scenario, I've been in a scenario where I was leaving a, it wasn't, like, a sex party or anything of that nature. But it was a party, I guess, that could have led to that. Like, or, it was a car party, child. And so, as I was leaving, because I was just leaving to leave, one of my clients was walking in. And I was like, ooh, thank God I left. I was leaving. I decided to leave when I left. But what type of car party was it? The one that ended sex, child. Oh, okay, okay. I was trying to just understand it. Oh, well, I get, wait, I shouldn't say. You said car party, it's like, oh, just let's put your place. Because it was one of those situations to where, like, you know, the person who ran a car party, it's strictly, like, you're not going to be forced. There's a lot of consent. And it's kind of like, you know, you're touched and you said, you know, hey, you know, this next hour, some things might happen. And if you, you're more than welcome to stay, but if you leave, there'll be no shade. And when I got tapped on my shoulder, I got on up and I, you know, I was deciding to leave. And if my client is walking in at that point, that means you're probably going to engage in some sexual activity because that's what's going to get ready to happen soon. I mean, yes, that totally makes sense. I just, I'm sorry, I'm stuck on this whole car situation. Did you call it a car party? Like, y'all just on the stage. Come on. You know that the gays have car parties and they be hunching afterwards. I'd never get invited to a car party. You don't hear, I, let's, well. I haven't been to everyone that I've invited, but even if you haven't been culturally, not culturally, you know, like, that's just like, it'd be a cover up or an orgy. It do be. It doesn't matter because I don't get those types of invites for whatever the reason. What would you do if you got invited to something like that? I don't know. You wouldn't go? You wouldn't, you'd go? You know, no reading, no saying, no picking on me. It'd be girls that are like, you know, with our pedigree, professionalism. Those, those would be the girls that really have it because you can curate the space to what you want it to be. I'd be a butch queen. Not butch queen. I mean, we, I guess we are butch queens, but like, no, like, come on now, let me finish. But no, like people with like masters, um, very, like, I would say a certain threshold of educational experience and maybe, and they will have the card parties because they can curate the space of who comes and you can always like, if I, like, likely if somebody invited me to a card party, not saying that I would go or not, and I had to, and I had to choose a friend to go with, it would be you. So that also allows, like, a person who's, like, in the same bracket, if you will, to kind of come. Interesting. Yeah. You never heard that? No! Now, Jordan, he sweat, he a goodie tissue. What? If I don't know, I don't know. What does that, like, what does that mean? Jordan has also been to naked yoga and made it through. I had a panic attack. Who's the angel? You. Me? I'm the angel. Oh! I didn't make it through. You was out there in your, the crack of your ass was for other people to see. And? That's the space to do it in. It's the fur. Oh, I had on some really skippy underwear, so they saw the crack of my ass, too. Girl. My panties was cute, too, bitch. What were they? Oh, I can't tell you. I got them from this place on Adams Morgan. I forgot the name of the place. Oh, my God. But it was basically these, it was a G-string. And it had, it was the, the, the, the front area was sheer, so you could see my meat. Um, and they had, they had like stars on it. And it was like, you know, I'm dark scared. So, you know, the primary colors look good on me. I eat them up. And so it was blue. It was blue. And the mesh was black, baby. I ate down. I'm sorry. But that panic attack ate me the fuck up. Or me up, bitch. In your cute underwear. In my cute underwear. Yeah. I was so over it, bitch. Ooh, I look good. And my socks matched, too. Ooh, it was tea. We still have to do that together. What? Underwear shopping. Oh, yeah. Look, I, I do well with underwear shopping. I, I know what look good on me. Um, so, oh my God, this is so personal, but fine, whatever. So, you know what? I am a man who has worn Nike compression shorts for forever. Like, literally, that is me. That is what my entire, like, almost complete Nike short is full of. I told you what I tell you. I bet them nuts be stank. Because them underwear, them compression shorts, they compress. They don't give you no, nuts be dry sticking to your thigh, bitch. Uh-uh. If you poop, bitch, oh my God. Like, it's the worst. I don't understand. What does that mean? What? If you fart in them, like, on Tuesday, you'll still smell them on Thursday. Like, it harbors odor. How? Like, your nuts deserve to be free. And just, there. Although a thong, you can't keep your nuts in a thong too long. Or maybe I just got big ass nuts. But, I don't know. But, bitch. Oh my God. Like, my nuts was hurting. Okay, I'm sorry. Go back to your Nike compression. Okay, no, that's it, though. I've worn Nike compression shorts for forever. And the problem is that, you know, being around you, I've learned through my bestie over here that my underwear is not up to snuff. And I'm such a regular boy because I don't know anything about, like, the nice underwear stuff. Like, I have, like, they're still, they're considered, like, boxer briefs. So, you know, it's kind of like the male girdle almost. It's like this. I just feel good. No. Kind of in these underwear. Exactly. And that's what they do to the smells that come out of there, too. What are you trying to say about my balls and everything else? Everybody, I don't care what nobody's saying. If you got hair on your dick, at the end of the day, in Nike compression shorts, your shits, they smell a little manny. God, I can't. A little tart, baby. A little musty, you know. I don't mind that, a little musty. But, no, it does smell a little spicy. Like, because you've been walking, you know, you've been doing, you've been working. Even if you have a sit-down job. If you're wearing briefs, the same thing is going to happen. No, you're, at least your briefs are more breathable. The Nike compression shorts are compression shorts, not panties or underwear. They're compression shorts. I know, but the other stuff is just so, like, Jordan got a snake dick, y'all. I'm sorry. Excuse me. It's about cleaning a regular basis, okay? We can't. We can't. No. It's okay. You got a little, it's just a little musty. Like, you'll always be into that. They do. That is a kink. That is a, that is a category on Sniffies. It really is. Must? Yes. Body odor, that natural odor. Oh my God. We are men who smell like men. You want to hear something funny? You know, I don't know if this is too much. I ain't going to say no names. It's okay. Let's talk. Let's go. Um, so, I have, when I was, you know, on the hookup apps before, I have had- Which one? I will not do that. I just know that I'm not on it. Um, I have had guys prefer me to go to the gym, workout, not shower before I leave the gym, because I normally shower before I leave the gym, and they wanted to, they wanted to eat my booty while I was like, while it was spicy like that. Listen, baby. I'm not saying that, girl, I did it. I did it. I ain't going to owe you. I did it. Um, it was, it was, it was, it was one of the best ones, but, could he, would you let him kiss you afterwards? Nevermind. Sorry. That might be too much. Step in the wrong direction, people. Let's move on. You know, but yeah, I just had like, so I say that all to say there are some guys who like not necessarily a smelly thing, but like a natural man odor. That makes sense. I mean, yeah, I, I've known men because pits is a thing. Yeah. So we also are having a guest, um, a furry in the next couple of weeks. I mean, we'll be interviewing a furry and getting a little background on them, but I know that he is into smells as well. Um, and so that it could be something we could ask him about, like, you know, it may not be something we're familiar with or why, but it might be okay. Um, you know, I like the smell of my man when I have a man, but I don't know if I'd like that mannish smell. I mean, I'm still going to. I mean, I can appreciate that a man is still, you know, like, that's what like for me makes me like know that I'm, let me know it reaffirms that I'm gay, huh? What? You like the smell of a man? Yeah. Cause it's like the ruggedness of a man is something that I find so appealing that to some extent does have to do with his, his smell, but not to the extent that you just have B.O. Yeah, exactly. You see, you like, you might be into that olfactory stuff. I don't need somebody smelling like zest though. Exactly. No, I don't think nothing's wrong with that. Like I, like, I don't, I, I, I think it's the smell of a man. Yes. I'm going to leave it at that. Not the extent. Now I don't want you leaving the gym. Like, and you, you all oniony. No, thank you. But if you, you know what I'm saying? Oniony. Oniony. Like, if my man went to work, when he come home, I'm going to suck that dick before he washes. It won't be a mandatory thing that he does. Like, it's not going to suck dick. It better be the ableist spouse. Now, I'm not going to eat your ass then because I feel like, you know, you may have farted a lot during the day and probably boo-booned. I'll have to eat that after. But I'm going to suck dick. That's the thing for some people though. What? They want you to what? Dirt. You know that some people want you to be dirty down there. And to do what? Either eat you out. Oh my God. Or there's some men who want to, who want to have intimate time together because they want, with that included in it. Okay. So, okay. Okay. So the only thing, I'm, I'm, I'm open to a lot of things y'all. I really am. Even if I don't do them, I'm open to them. So I could understand wanting to like fuck a guy who hasn't cleaned his butt. I can get that. I don't, I don't, you know what I mean? I get into it, girl. It, I get it. I understand that piece. The eating shit flakes, like that is unhealthy. That can put you in the hospital. That's salmonella. And that's it. It can really, it can make you sick. I can't, Jerry. So I, okay. Let's put this out here now. If you are a person who is into that kink, I would, we would love to have you on the Queer and Kinky Cow. Absolutely. Because like, in all honesty, like, and this is not to shame or shade anyone. I would need to know what are we getting out of it? I have heard that people want to feel like I've had, like, because this came out of you. Bitch, just come in me. Like, cause what do you mean? You want to eat my boo-boo? It just, I don't know. Like, okay, okay. I'm not, you know, y'all. No, you're just talking about, but you're also, disclaimer, it's Jerry's talking about his own preference. No, I'm not talking about my own preference. I'm just, I'm more concerned with the health adversities. I think there is health risks. Like, like, that's what I'm more concerned about. Because E. coli, like, that's insane. Like, people in our community, like, use dental dams, which has been around for forever as a form of. Bitch, you try to eat me with a dental dam. You can dental dam your way about my house. Like, bitch. No, it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's like wearing a condom. That's so bad. It's so bad. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. I don't know, child. It's like, you might want to put Saram Wrap on it. The feeling is going to be different. Your feeling is definitely going to be different. I was just thinking also, a part of it is the wetness. You like the wetness of it. See, I don't like sloppy head, but I do like to know that my dick is in something that's moist. The fuck? For some people, that can be dry as a Sahara Desert right there. It's men. All men don't produce the same. Oh, okay. Yeah. I get that. I get that. I get that. But you have lube. You have lube. You know, bitch, I have had some times, girl, try to say, I don't like lube. You can get the fuck out of my house. What do you mean? You're not going to do me without no goddamn lube. They be trying to tell your little booty hole up. And then I have to deal with that first boo-boo the next day. No. There are some people who just need more assistance and have not fully learned. Oh, no thank you. So, okay. We haven't done this in a while, but something really, really good for us to do, because I think the subject matter is something that we see a lot when it comes to our clients. So, what I'm talking about is Couch Confessionals. We haven't had one in a while. I have one pulled up from an anonymous viewer, whoever you are, and I think we should go to that. Ready. Welcome back to the Queer and Kinky Couch. Or more specifically, Couch Confessional. So, here's what I have for us. Dear Jordan and Jerry, I proposed to my boyfriend in front of our family and friends. My best friend of 12 years helped me pick the ring, recorded the proposal, and gave a toast about how we deserved each other. Two weeks later, I discovered they'd been sleeping together for eight months. A message popped up while I was looking at engagement photos on my fiance's phone. You promised you would leave him before this went any further. My fiance says it was just sex. My best friend says they're in love. Apparently, I'm the only person who thought I knew what relationship I was in. But what broke me was learning that my best friend had been sharing our private conversations with him. Whenever I called crying about my relationship, he would tell my boyfriend everything. Then my boyfriend would come home saying exactly what I needed to hear. I thought we were growing closer. Now I question every good moment we've had. My fiance wants couples therapy. My best friend keeps saying he never meant to hurt me. Meanwhile, our families are sending wedding venues and people are still commenting relationship goals on our proposal video. I watched it again yesterday, right after he said yes. My fiance looked over my shoulder at my best friend. I had not noticed. Now it's all I see. I haven't told everyone because I'm still trying to understand what happened, but keep their secret is starting to feel like another betrayal. This time, to myself. How do I grieve relationship and my closest friendship at the same time? And why, after everything they've done, am I still worried about what happens to them when I tell the truth? Sincerely, the last to know. Ooh, that. Sorry, I'm not. I'm laughing because I'm uncomfortable. Because, wow. Wow. I don't know where we would even start with that one. I just want to recap. The person who wrote in is engaged. He found out two weeks after his engagement that his partner and his best friend of 12 years have been having an affair. And, you know, he tells his best friend everything. His best friend tells the partner. I think the partner thinks that it's just sex. And the best friend thinks that they're in love. That's a whole dynamic. And it sounds like the partner promised the best friend that he was going to leave him. But yet he proposed to him. And the piece about, like, him looking up while he was proposing. Yeah. That sounds like my heart goes out to you. It really does. Let's start from a clinical standpoint, at least where I would want to with this client is saying, like, we have to see where you are when it comes to your self-confidence. I just always want to start there because as somebody who's informed in trauma work and anxiety and other specific disorders, like, that's something that's really, really important. We need to make sure that you have a firm foundation before we start delving into these parts of you that may be difficult for you to actually deal with and sit in. So I think that's important to see where you are from a self-confidence standpoint and build it up where you need to be. And most of the time you need to build it up and then kind of go from there. I like that. I like the idea of, like, finding out where their self-confidence is. And in all honesty, I think for me, like, and this is, like, the way of doing the same thing, I need to find out where they are as a person. Like, are you crumbling? Are you still able to work? Like, how are you feeling in this moment right now? Because I think that, for me, it would dictate how we can kind of move forward, what direction we can go in. Because, you know, this sounds like a lot, a lot, a whole lot to unpack. It is. But the very first thing also, problem solving. We got to address the elephant in the room. Also, I didn't think about this before when I was thinking about what initial treatment steps I would implement. But I think it's super, super important that we address the problem, which is simply that you are still locked in to a relationship amongst your closest of friends and family, and they're still planning towards it. You're in the midst of that. I can only imagine the amount of anxiety he probably experiences on a daily basis. Yeah. That's why I think it's important to find out where they are. Like, where are you? Are you going to still marry this person? Are you going to marry this person and stop talking to the friend? Are you going to keep the friend and get rid of him? Are you going to get rid of both of them? I mean, you talk about mourning, but I don't know if that means he's left the situation and how he's going to leave it. Okay. And that's where I would have to figure out, like, where, like, in all honesty, where does your heart lie? Because I've often told my clients, and I always say this, unless they are abusing you emotionally, physically, a combination of both, I will not tell you to leave your partner. But what I will do is ask you what do you want in partnership and ask you if that aligns with what you have. And that makes you have to be honest with yourself, and then we can figure out where you want to go. Because I work with people who just want you to help them manage their feelings while they stay with the person who has had infidelity. Yeah, it doesn't work as well when it comes to sitting in my office across from me, or even across a computer screen, because we're going to address that. I never like to or appreciate anybody that belittles what we do for a living down to advice. So this is a disclaimer here. I don't give advice. That's not what I do. That is not part of my profession or our shared profession. That's just not what we're about. So given that, in terms of my approach with these therapy sessions, because I don't have some clients just be blatant with me. Like, I have a question, just give me an answer, Jordan. And I won't give it to them. Because the moment it doesn't work out for them, whatever they choose, who are they pointing the finger at? You. That's why I will not tell you their partner. I will give you a question that's going to cause you to think. And quite honestly, I think that is part of my secret sauce. You're hearing it here. But I'm never generally in this position as your therapist, as your guide, essentially say, like, this is the path. It's about asking the right questions so you feel comfortable choosing what is the correct path for yourself. Yeah, agreed. That's why I ask the question. It reveals itself kind of to you. Like, and if you say you don't want this, and you're moving in this direction, are you abandoning yourself? And that's the part, you know, especially with, you know, cheating. You have to realize, are you abandoning yourself or are you moving forward? As for me, I, like, clinically, I, like, if I have this client, I would find out, like, where you are, what do you want to do? And then from there, we can move forward. If they decided to stay, then, you know, there's that piece of forgiveness working past it, all that good stuff. So, what they taught us and the education I've received thus far when it comes to sex education is to bring to the couple's attention initially, like, there was a break in the verbal agreement. It is now null and void. You had communication with your partner and you said, this is what our relationship is going to be. So, that means that, guess what, rip it up, it goes away. With there being no contract in place, it's time to reevaluate. Given you're good in your bag, your ups and your downs, your highs and your lows, as simple as it sounds, but it's really kind of, you know what those are. They're very individual. So, that's why I have to use general terms and say, does it make sense to say, I want to at least come to the table and think about that and discuss with the other person. It's a good time to reevaluate. Because for some people, it's a hard line in the sand, for others, it's not. So, sit there, evaluate if you want to move forward, and then go from there. And I often tell people, because my, that was also a red flag for me, like, if you cheated on me, it's over. But then I had to ask myself, why is it over? Like, what, like, is this something that you've been taught to do? Or is this something that you, like, naturally believed in? Because what if, and I'm not saying that this happens, what if? And this is not that scenario. What if the person cheats on you, and it really is just one time, and it is about sex, or something of that nature, or it is about something that they want to fix? Do you just throw it away? Or, like, you may not be able to rebuild this trust, or, you know, that kind of with the person, although you can. So, I had to ask myself why. And a little of my answers was, I can't really trust you again. You, like, you lied. Okay, I want to go there. So, it's just, let's, will you cheat on me again? Think about it very simply as, I know all the way up to this point that it's highly likely if I've been cheated on once that I could have been cheated on multiple times. Some people, a lot of people, take that to mean different things. A lot of times it's really symptomatic of a bigger problem that needs to be addressed. Yeah, yeah. People usually, people cheat to cheat most of the time. There is usually something else going on that causes the cheating. A, what's the word that I'm looking for? One partner may want to have sex with the other partner. I forgot the clinical term for it. It slips my mind right now. One partner might want to try a different role, and that other partner may not be, may not want to flex. Like, the bottom may want to top, and the top doesn't want to let the bottom top him. And so, now he goes out and he has sex with other people. There's usually a reason. I'm not saying it's an excuse. We're not excusing the behavior, but there's usually a symptom that causes the cheating to actually happen and occur. It does, but acknowledging there's a problem, trying to get to the root of it, doing some psychoanalytic work with the clients, it's trying to get to the bottom of what is the bigger problem. It's not one. It's not like the same one for each couple. It's something different. But can you identify it, and can you have a conversation about it, versus do you want to sit? And you're very much allowed to, but if you are going to be upset about it, and it's something that affects you, just regulates you emotionally on a regular basis, then maybe that means take a step back. Yeah. You know, it made me think about this one guy that I, a little story time to add to the couch confessional. I remember I was an undergrad at FAMU, and there was this guy who used to do shows, as a guy. He used to do shows, like, you know, the lip syncing and stuff. And his stage name was No Good, But So Good. And I remember Mr. No Good, But So Good had tried to ask me out. And I was like, your stage name is No Good, But So Good. I don't know about that. And he ended up like, he was a friend of a friend, so I saw him often. Okay. And I remember asking him one time, I was like, you know, why do they call you No Good, But So Good? He said, because I ain't no good to no bitch in no relationship. And I said, excuse me? He said, yeah, every person I've ever been with, I've cheated on. And I said, and people know this? Because he was still, also, he would still get play, which was wild as hell to me. And he was like, yeah, he was like, you know, it's known that I'm a cheater. And I said, he's like, because he thinks everyone cheats. I was like, no, that's not necessarily true. Everyone don't cheat. That's you. That's a little nasty ass. But then I asked him, well, what if you end up with somebody who hasn't cheated on you? Would you cheat on them? He said, yes. I was like, you wouldn't feel bad about that? He's like, in my thought, I got them before they got me. And I was like, oh, you have had a fucked up upbringing. Like, or that belief system was just like, no God. Not I said my cat. I wouldn't do that. No. But yeah, just add to that. I think that that's another, like a person who cheats like that, that is within that cheater. That is within that person. But sometimes people do cheat because of what is or is not happening within the relationship. But we have to get to the root of that first. We acknowledge there's a problem, but let's try to identify what that is. You can't just acknowledge it. You got to identify what it is. What about the relationship with the best friend? What would you do with that? Like, how would you help them work through that part? Because that is two losses. One of the best things I could actually say is the best friend needs to go get a therapist and have two people manage it from two different ends, honestly. Like, you need somebody to help deal with the client that we would have or I would have or you would have. And then somebody else to deal with the best friend and say, like, you're in therapy. Go talk to your therapist about this right now. We'll maybe reconvene in six months. So are you saying that they could be friends again? No, that's not for them to dictate. See, yet again, it's me writing their story. I'm asking, like, if this happened to you, I guess, could you befriend? Like, because, like, we're going, as therapists, we help you decide what you want to do and what makes sense to you that is the least harmful. And so if you want to have this person back in your life, again, unless they're, well, that can be emotional abuse, but unless they're abusing you emotionally, too, like, if this best friend came back and he started sleeping with Autumn and you didn't look like, girl, I'm going to have to tell you something. But if this is, if you want to work this friendship out and you're like, you know, I love him more, I love this good stuff, like, I would help you get to a point to where this relationship is comfortable for you. I would also warn you about certain things because, honey, he was sleeping with your man for eight months. You know what? I have told a few of my clients, you shouldn't be friends with them, so I'm sorry. Because I have, like, maybe, but I feel like it was emotional abuse. I feel like there was emotional abuse that was happening. I was like, you're special. Like, you know, you can't let people treat you that way. But that's why we go back to starting with, okay, where are you from a self-confidence standpoint? So I have this image that I've made. I can draw it out. It's called, for your self-confidence is the sense of self scale. And it starts at a, I'm giving away the secret sauce here. Let's just say it starts at a zero versus the way I call it. And it goes all the way up to a 10. And for so many people, when they're confronted with that question, if they are not as transparent the first time around, the second time around, and the third time around, they might finally get there. And their self-confidence is a lot lower. So we're starting with that. Then we're going to go next to what's healthy versus unhealthy. And we're not going to start with just a relationship. We're going to talk about other aspects of a said person's life. Because generally, you're going to find examples of where you're healthy versus unhealthy. And what's good for you versus what's bad for you. Then we can move on to the best friend and say, like, now you've determined that you've always had this ability to identify what's healthy for you and what's unhealthy for you. So now we're going to use that same skill set on the best friend. And you're going to have to determine if this is an unhealthy friendship or situation for you to be in moving forward. And to say no more or to continue to move forward. True. I'm just, I'm thinking of the point, what if he says, I feel like it's healthy at this point. It doesn't, like, if he forgiven him and says, I would like to move forward. That's okay. That's his decision. He didn't, he made that decision based off a series of conversations that we've had, right? Using these tools. What would you do clinical wise as him moving forward? Like, how would you help him move forward in that relationship? Trying to help him determine what, how to identify the problem signs within the friendship sooner. And address those, like, directly. So it's okay. Things have maybe been going, or even building back towards this new friendship, or newer friendship. It is your, all these places and things you need to do just to get to a better place or see. I don't know. I hear you. I do think that there is healing after cheating. I'm always thinking about, like, the one or two caveats. Like, of course, we want our people to have, you know, good friendships, healing friendships, friendships where they can talk through things that are worth talking about. We want our people to be in good spaces. But there's always a curveball that we get sometimes where they'll say, I don't want this person in my life. And then six weeks from now, you find out that a person is back in their life, but you find out through tragedy. Like, oh, well, we got into a physical fight. Well, I thought y'all weren't dealing with each other. And then you find out that they've been, you know, hiding things. So I'm just saying, like, in those kind of scenarios, what do we do? Yeah. Oh, we always have to go back to, like, what do you consider healthy or unhealthy? And not what Jordan, as your therapist, thinks is unhealthy or healthy for you. No, you have the tools. That makes sense. But if they're not telling you, how are you supposed to know? You know what I'm saying? No, but then they have, we're going to talk about accountability. You have the tools. I know, but we're going to talk about accountability next. We are going to have to talk about accountability. That's what I was going to say. Also, like, every tool that we give our clients, unfortunately, they don't use it right away. Sometimes it takes them a little while to apply it because it's something different in their life. And so sometimes, because it took them a little while to apply it, they have certain things that are dangling on and figuring out. But yes, I always go to, okay, accountability. How much of this, like, I have two columns. How much of this is mine? Like, how much of this do I have to own because I allow these things to kind of happen? And if that side gets full, then we realistically look at it. Like, at that point, I think sometimes some people, and I'm a visual learner as well, some people have to see the visual. Like, oh, wow, that's a lot. And it's like, okay, well, now I can make a sound decision. Yeah, I'll give you that. Okay. We are super, super happy that you have stuck with us and you are still here. Thank you for watching another episode of The Queer and Kiki Couch. Yeah, today we had a nice, long couch confessional about infidelity and about, like, losing friendships. Yes. It's not something that you hear about every single day when you hear about cheating. This is a very, very explicit, detailed, not, I don't think I've experienced this before. Yeah, double whammy. I had a scenario like this in my chair multiple times, unfortunately. But it was, I'm hoping that we got the message across. I'm hoping to the writer, you know, wishing you all the best. But start with your own self-esteem. Let's see if self-esteem is a part of, you know, what may be going or what's keeping you in this relationship. We have some little jewels for our couch confessional that we drop, you know, not just from our life experience, but from our clinical lens as well, which is something that's really important for us to bring to this space. Yeah. And it's important to know that, you know, you can recover from cheating. You just need two willing participants who are willing to work for it and move forward. Very true. So until next episode, stay queer. Well, actually, so the next time that we're actually going to be meeting, we're going to be doing our first interview. And we have an interview with James. He's a furry. I mean, he's into other kinks. And so next time that you see us, we'll be interviewing James. And there's going to be a lot of things that we might try on and or bring out that might be shocking. So I can't wait for you guys to see this. I'm look, I'm here for it. Look at me. The one with a panic attack. But no. Oh, they don't know about that. Oh my God. We talk about naked yoga. We do talk about naked yoga and how Jordan flawlessly executed his experience and why I was heaving in the bathroom. Oh, I think that's everything that you need to know. And come join us for, of course, the next episode. Yeah. And remember to stay queer and keep it kinky. Bye.